Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Oct 24, 2017 6:39:39 GMT
On the now defunct CCF, we had a thread going into this topic, and I thought it an idea to ressurect t on here. The original Opening Post to the old thread:
So... opinion, everyone?
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Oct 24, 2017 18:04:23 GMT
Alternate history? Alternatistory?
Just a few ideas:
Sir Walter Scott would never have written Ivanhoe.
Sir Alfred Tennyson's poem Lady Clare Vere de Vere would not have contained this line:
"Kind hearts are more than coronets, and simple faith than Norman blood."
This means that the film Kind Hearts and Coronets, in which Sir Alec Guinness plays all the members of the D'Ascoyne family, would never have been made. This is one of my favourite films.
Sellar & Yeatman would not have written their parody “1066 and All That”, with its references to Good Men and Bad Kings.
We would not have had the Saviles and the Debneys to write about.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Oct 24, 2017 18:06:53 GMT
Alfred, Lord Tennyson mentioned the Normans in another of his poems, a welcome poem to Princess Alexandra:
Sea king’s daughter from over the sea, Alexandra! Saxon and Norman and Dane are we...
Maybe he would have put Celt instead of Norman!
He also wrote a couple of dramatic works about the Norman Conquest. They would have taken a very different form. Kipling would not have written his poems Norman and Saxon and Norman Conquest.
We would have had no Kings or Princes called William...
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Oct 24, 2017 22:57:22 GMT
Alternate history? Alternatistory? Ah, getting to the "alternaticity" of the issue! I really thought it a very good topic, and one very much meriting survival. Because there is a huge amount that would change. Things like the Channel Islands would not be British, because they had been part of the Duchy of Normandy. When that was ended, the ownership fell to the English monarchy. Lots and lots of things like that, all affecting things. It might seem a trivial event, but I feel it is one of the most important events in human history for at least two thousand years. Oh, I'm certain there would be someone to talk about. There always is, sadly.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Oct 25, 2017 6:00:56 GMT
I meant that there would be fewer people with names of French origin around!
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Post by Achilles on Oct 26, 2017 17:41:26 GMT
An interesting example in the Lord's Prayer above - if I get time I'd like to explore (potentially elsewhere) the entry of missionaries to the British Isles - specifically when and where as generally prayer by the middle ages was in Latin and items like latin primers were uncommon meaning it was usually taught verbally to families (Ref Duffy, E. 1992 The stripping of the Altars) so I'd be interested to know if this is a latter effort retro-translated or something else.
Agree that names and language structure would be massively different.
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Oct 26, 2017 22:57:48 GMT
I meant that there would be fewer people with names of French origin around! I agree and disagree with that. Those who had Norman origins would obviously not be around, but what about other periods? Would there still have been Hugonauts, for example? Also, how many people would have emigrated to England? Given the proximity, I feel it safe to say there would still be an influx. However, how big would it have been? Likely far less that it has been, because the cultural ties would be far weaker. The Norman Conquest did many things, one of which was to decide if England orientated with the continent, or Scandinavia. It could have gone either way.
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Oct 26, 2017 23:24:56 GMT
An interesting example in the Lord's Prayer above - if I get time I'd like to explore (potentially elsewhere) the entry of missionaries to the British Isles - specifically when and where as generally prayer by the middle ages was in Latin and items like latin primers were uncommon meaning it was usually taught verbally to families (Ref Duffy, E. 1992 The stripping of the Altars) so I'd be interested to know if this is a latter effort retro-translated or something else. Agree that names and language structure would be massively different. Feel free to start a new thread, if you wish. I've just created a history section, because there will be many more historical topics being discussed, I'm sure! And that is a very good point, indeed. The language of the Church would have been Latin, though I wonder what the Celtic Church used? I found this, and thought of sharing: SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_influence_in_EnglishSo, the plot thickens, so to speak. Could there have been some recognisability to the alternate language, through Latin?
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Oct 27, 2017 6:15:47 GMT
Let's not forget Domesday Book. It is fascinating to see the old place names, and the names of the landowners. Faversham for example, with its Bob Geldof and masonic connections, is Favreshant. www.domesdaybook.co.uk/kent2.html#faversham
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Oct 27, 2017 21:21:15 GMT
More importantly, it was an amazing census, and a brilliant snapshot of the country at the time.
You also would not have the likes of Dover Castle, as hey were built as a response to resistance, or making a statement not to rebel. Another good example is the Tower of London. It was built to remind Londoners that William was around, and he would crush them if they proved an annoyance.
Kent would not have the motto of "Invicta," as that is stemming from the fact that the county kept on harassing and haranguing him the whole time he was in the county. Only the Jutish population was capitulating.
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on Dec 4, 2020 23:08:03 GMT
What I'll say for now is that, whether we like old Guillaume le Conquérant or not, he was a truly great man (which doesn't mean 'nice man'). He had an impact on history few others have ever had, and to this day there is a terrific aura around his name. No one will ever take that away from him.
My view on William is that, for the men of Normandy and their descendants, he was a fantastic leader. For the displaced Anglo-Saxon ruling class... maybe not so much! But history's not a Marvel film, it's not a clear-cut, black-and-white story of good vs evil. The Saxons weren't angels (they had dispatched the Romano-British ruling class 500 years before with considerable cruelty) and the Normans weren't devils (aside from acts of cruelty, they modernised England in necessary ways).
There would very probably have been no British Empire without him, which is the thing that makes me wish the English had won the most.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Dec 5, 2020 8:38:32 GMT
There are many more online discussions about what might have happened if King Harold Godwinson had defeated William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings than I would have expected. There is even a book on the subject: “The victory of King Harold over William the (Would-be) Conqueror at Hastings in 1066 sets in motion an ever-expanding cascade of events—beginning with a conflict with the Papacy. Rome’s envoy to England, the papal legate Hildebrand, refuses to recognize Harold’s right to the island kingdom’s throne. Harold didn’t back down from William, and he’s not going to back down now. He brings to England a Scottish monk, Colum-cille, setting underway a renaissance of the Celtic Church that hasn’t been seen since the Synod of Whitby...“ www.amazon.co.uk/After-Hastings-Steven-H-Silver-ebook/dp/B08C248K89/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=after+hastings+silver&qid=1607155544&s=books&sr=1-1
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on Dec 6, 2020 23:26:28 GMT
I don't think it's at all likely there would've been a renaissance of the Celtic Church!
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Dec 14, 2020 22:26:22 GMT
I never posted this! It is certainly an interesting video, and shows what efforts there are to create a purely Germanic language for England. Myself? I would be more inclined to create a new Celtic language for England!
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Dec 14, 2020 22:33:46 GMT
I really need to reacquaint myself with the topic, to better contribute to it.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Dec 15, 2020 8:41:44 GMT
I vaguely remember that there were many wars in connection with English kings wanting land and positions in France they had some kind of claim to – Henry V for example. Joan of Arc was involved too.
The 100 Years' War covers a lot of it.
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Jan 1, 2021 0:46:21 GMT
I vaguely remember that there were many wars in connection with English kings wanting land and positions in France they had some kind of claim to – Henry V for example. Joan of Arc was involved too. The 100 Years' War covers a lot of it. That is because of the French connections the royalty had. Henry II held more French lands than the King of France did, for example. It is because of the Norman origins, along with the marriages successive dynasties held. There is a rich tapestry of history that would never have been without the Norman Conquest. What would have been in its place? Hard to say, really.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jan 14, 2021 9:12:29 GMT
No Hereward the Wake?
This is my post from the old CC forum: “...the reality is that the Battle of Hastings itself had not been the single decisive, crushing victory people think it was. There were rebellions for years afterwards.” So there were. You have reminded me of Hereward the Wake, the guerrilla leader in the Fenlands. Charles Kingsley’s 1866 novel turned him into a national hero. Recent research alleges that he was Danish: “In 1066 the country was invaded by both the Scandinavians and the Normans, both of whom were determined to seize permanent control of England. As an ethnic Dane, Hereward was intensely anti-Norman, probably even more so than many Anglo-Saxons. He was able to enlist military support from Denmark itself, the new research reveals, and in 1069 the Danish royal family and the Danish church sent a small army across the North Sea to assist Hereward.” www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/hereward-the-wake-englands-national-hero-wasnt-really-english-after-all-484122.html
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on Dec 25, 2023 20:55:47 GMT
I think that there is deeper problems, which this topic has not yet considered.
I've done some studying of British history, but have focused on Sub Roman Britain. It is rather clear to me that the Roman departure was a massive shock to the nation, and it did damage. But I think the Romans did some cultural sterilisation, to make the British stop rebelling so much.
I think there is a chain of events that led to a lack of English Mythology, and the Norman Conquest is a culmination of that chain of events.
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