UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on May 26, 2020 7:57:22 GMT
(I have taken this out of the Brexit Discussion thread, to be able to properly discuss the whole pandemic, the lockdowns and other such related matters. This is something that will have some deep and drastic long-term effects, and deserve a thread to properly talk about them.
I also want to state that while I am in my Mod Voice, this is just an administration matter, and no-one is in trouble in the slightest. In fact, I am glad people are engaging and talking about this, and many other subjects! - Avacyn.)
I am outclassed when it comes to these discussions!
I have not kept up with political developments the way I did on the old forum. I am very slow at the moment when it comes to taking in new information and I have trouble making decisions about some current issues as I find the arguments on both sides very convincing.
However, despite the opposing views of many people I have had the feeling right from the start that the lockdown restrictions are too drastic. I have been wondering whether this could have anything to do with deliberately stalling the Brexit discussions.
A comment above inspired a quick investigation...
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Post by UnseenI on May 26, 2020 7:58:51 GMT
Professor Lockdown
I was intrigued by this Avacyn: “Boris wanted things to be much less restricted, but the "experts" were saying otherwise. Using inefficient programs written in FORTRAN, of all things.” I see that Professor Neil Ferguson was the chief ‘expert’ and that his team of modellers at Imperial College’s School of Public Health predicted that more than 500,000 people would die if the government took no action. His research was flawed - and not for the first time. The software used was inadequate. Could this have been deliberate? He broke the lockdown rules to see his girlfriend Antonia Staats, who has campaigned against Brexit. I remember the ‘dodgy dossier’ briefing document that was used as justification for the invasion of Iraq?. It was exposed as having been partly plagiarised from an old thesis. Could the predictions have been manufactured to force a lockdown? Professor Ferguson, who has resigned from the committee of expert advisers to the PM:
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Avacyn
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Post by Avacyn on May 27, 2020 6:57:09 GMT
(I have taken this out of the Brexit Discussion thread, to be able to properly discuss the whole pandemic, the lockdowns and other such related matters. This is something that will have some deep and drastic long-term effects, and deserve a thread to properly talk about them.
I also want to state that while I am in my Mod Voice, this is just an administration matter, and no-one is in trouble in the slightest. In fact, I am glad people are engaging and talking about this, and many other subjects! - Avacyn.) I am outclassed when it comes to these discussions! I have not kept up with political developments the way I did on the old forum. I am very slow at the moment when it comes to taking in new information and I have trouble making decisions about some current issues as I find the arguments on both sides very convincing. However, despite the opposing views of many people I have had the feeling right from the start that the lockdown restrictions are too drastic. I have been wondering whether this could have anything to do with deliberately stalling the Brexit discussions. A comment above inspired a quick investigation... You are not outclassed, my good lady. There is a lot to keep track of, and trust me... I struggle to keep up with, and process everything! The lockdown might have made sense in Italy, because it had gotten out of control. However... that was all engineered. The planes should have been stopped, and they were not. Northern Italy has had its factories bought out by the Chinese, who then import in cheap labour from China to work in them. And guess how many have been coming and going, who were from Wuhan? The lockdowns were out of proportion. And when you look at Sweden and the Netherlands, you can see that the virus did it's thing, no matter what. However, the lockdowns were all about crashing the economy, and absolutely wrecking everything. When I was preparing back in February, I was working on supplies of bottled water, because I saw a situation where the British Army was going to ahve to seize all of the power plants and water stations, to guarantee that they would still operate. Happily, we have not had such a breakdown - not even close. I will be carrying on with this, but my time right now is restricted. But this is a massive subject, and there are lots of layers to it all. Trust me, this isn't a pandemic - it's a plandemic.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on May 27, 2020 7:40:06 GMT
It is interesting to hear that you too are thinking that the lockdown was a bit of an overkill. All I had was a feeling that they had gone too far - and vague memories of that dodgy dossier.
Various conspiracy theories are being discussed - and dismissed - in many places online.
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Post by UnseenI on May 27, 2020 20:04:09 GMT
A view from the US
Apparently the likely number of fatalities if the government did nothing was grossly over-estimated there too: ”The people who wanted lockdowns had gained the obeisance of powerful people in government institutions and in the media. So actual data, science, or respect for human rights suddenly became meaningless. All that mattered was getting those lockdowns. So the lockdown crowd destroyed the lives of millions in the developed world—and more than a hundred million in the developing world—to satisfy the hunches of a tiny handful of politicians and technocrats.” mises.org/power-market/what-if-lockdown-was-all-big-mistake
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on May 27, 2020 21:20:52 GMT
I have a different take on this. I'm cream crackered at the moment, so I'll properly explain why at the weekend perhaps. But in short, I think the real scandal here isn't some hidden conspiracy to create an Orwellian totalitarian nightmare, but the incapability of the Western liberal order to deal with a crisis.
On the virus itself, the death rate is quite low, but it's very infectious, and it's leaving some people who have recovered from it with long-term illnesses. A very nasty virus.
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Post by UnseenI on May 29, 2020 7:10:10 GMT
I have been taking the virus fairly seriously when it comes to keeping a distance from people, but am not paranoid about germs. I go out quite frequently - London is a much better place without all the traffic and tourists!
I can’t decide whether the lockdown decision was based on incompetence and misleading information or whether it was part of a sinister social experiment. Maybe it was a bit of both.
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Post by Avacyn on May 31, 2020 20:29:55 GMT
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Post by Avacyn on May 31, 2020 20:56:03 GMT
I have a different take on this. I'm cream crackered at the moment, so I'll properly explain why at the weekend perhaps. But in short, I think the real scandal here isn't some hidden conspiracy to create an Orwellian totalitarian nightmare, but the incapability of the Western liberal order to deal with a crisis. On the virus itself, the death rate is quite low, but it's very infectious, and it's leaving some people who have recovered from it with long-term illnesses. A very nasty virus. The current economic system, the petrodollar system, is dying fast. This helps to cover it up. Also, it is an attack on Trump, to weaken him. The plan was to keep us all shut down until November, so they could rig the election, and make it a solid win for the Deep State. As for how nasty the virus is, it is a chimera. Made in a lab, then escaped. Or rather, released. It is made to target humans. Also, it seems to be more damaging to those who have had regular vaccines. Also, we need to look at those with lasting health problems, and see if there is a correlation. And that is currently not possible, because it is too soon to work out and understand. It can leave people rather drained and tired, meaning they need time after fighting it off to recover, and get back up to speed. My workplace is on the frontlines to this pandemic, so I know from simple observation how it can hit people. So far, a quarter of the regular workforce got it, and the majority was not so bad. The big question is asymptomatic spread. We need to hope that we have had a handful of strains rampage through the population, not showing any hint of being about. Why? It effectively becomes a vaccine, against the nastier strains. And we develop herd immunity... As an aside, George Carlin had some thoughts (in adult language) about germs: One comment from the video: "Legend says, George got infected by a corona virus once. But after five days of agonizing pain, the virus died."
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Post by Dragonfly Girl on Jun 3, 2020 22:42:24 GMT
"I will be carrying on with this, but my time right now is restricted. But this is a massive subject, and there are lots of layers to it all. Trust me, this isn't a pandemic - it's a plandemic."
Too many coincidences to make this "just random". Yes, a PLANdemic. Patents were taken out for COVID years ago. Just waiting for the right time for its use. just look at this from 2003.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 4, 2020 7:37:50 GMT
“Made in a lab, then escaped. Or rather, released.”
“Too many coincidences to make this "just random". Yes, a PLANdemic.”
A former head of MI6 believes that it WAS made in a lab, but the escape was accidental.
It is very interesting to see that some demographics are affected more than others, Bangladeshis for example.
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on Jun 4, 2020 14:28:15 GMT
My main 3 difficulties with the 'plandemic' theory (insofar as the idea that this 'plandemic' is meant to bring in a totalitarian state) are these:
1) Why are regimes that are hostile to the West - China, Russia, Iran, Syria, the DPRK, Vietnam, Venezuela, Cuba - going along with it? How is it in their interest to do so?
2) It has massively restricted the international flow of goods and people - something the ruling class definitely don't want!
3) Lockdown seriously disrupts the constant production-consumption cycle that is a cornerstone of neoliberal economics. They don't want people locked indoors, they want them out and about, spending and consuming, hence the lockdown (that they were initially against, but had no choice but to bring in) being lifted.
The end goal of the ruling class isn't a totalitarian state straight out of Orwell's nightmares, it's much more like Brave New World - a world of soulless bugmen consumer-slaves, stripped of their identities, ignorant, dulling their pain with substances and consumerism. I don't see how these theories tally with that, but I'd be interested to hear some ideas.
As for the ethnicities being hit harder, that's likely to do with vitamin D deficiency. People who didn't evolve in Europe struggle to absorb enough vitamin D from the weak northern sun, which means their immune systems aren't functioning optimally.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 6, 2020 20:36:31 GMT
In London at least, certain ethnicities dominate certain frontline positions. Bus drivers, the security men on the doors of food shops operating the one out, one in system for example.
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 11, 2020 8:00:33 GMT
Deep State plots
“It is an attack on Trump, to weaken him. The plan was to keep us all shut down until November, so they could rig the election, and make it a solid win for the Deep State.” Avacyn you are in good company: “President Trump tweeted a letter written to him from Carlo Maria Viganò, a Catholic archbishop, who suggests the coronavirus pandemic and the George Floyd protests are part of a 'deep state' plot to hurt the president's re-election. In the long-winded letter, Viganò describes the current climate as a battle against good and evil and says Trump's participation in the anti-abortion 'March for Life' 'confirm which side you wish to fight on.' 'In society, Mr. President, these two opposing realities co-exist as eternal enemies, just as God and Satan are eternal enemies. And it appears that the children of darkness – whom we may easily identify with the deep state, which you wisely oppose and which is fiercely waging war against you in these days – have decided to show their cards, so to speak, by now revealing their plans,' Viganò wrote. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8408463/Catholic-archbishop-tells-Trump-protests-virus-deep-state-plot.html
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Post by Tsar on Jun 16, 2020 17:46:51 GMT
New Zealand: a COVID-19 success story1,506 cases of coronavirus and just 22 deaths. Only 2 new cases in the month of June: two people from Britain allowed in to visit a dying relative under compassionate exemptions that are no longer in place. Those 22 deaths are a tragedy, but New Zealand escaping with such little damage is a miracle, right? Well, not really. Just a triumph of common sense over liberalism. New Zealand killed coronavirus by being illiberal. In a rare move for a Western regime, Jacinda Ardern's government prioritised public health over the profit margins of big business. How did they do this? - Completely shutting down the borders to non-residents and quarantining returning New Zealanders for 14 days; - A strict early domestic lockdown before case numbers spiralled out of control; - Bringing in a comprehensive and efficient contact tracing scheme New Zealand has now lifted all lockdown restrictions: no more social distancing needed and people can gather in public again. Pubs and cinemas and restaurants are open, people are back at work, and weddings and funerals can take place as normal again. Life is back to normal for New Zealanders. The borders are still closed, in a wise move to make sure that the virus isn't reintroduced. Compare all of this to the catastrophically incompetent handling of the crisis by the British government, who made face masks mandatory on public transport 3 months into lockdown, and seem to be of the view that viruses can spread in pubs and football stadiums but not in Primark. More people will sadly die from this virus and we're going to be living in this limbo for most of the rest of this year and possibly longer, thanks to a negligent and inept government. Because of the New Zealand government's decisive action, all New Zealand has to do now is keep its borders closed. That's it. Prime Minister Ardern has a load of other policies that I completely disagree with, but she has done a superb job in protecting her country from coronavirus and she should be praised for it.
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 17, 2020 19:45:02 GMT
"...made face masks mandatory on public transport 3 months into lockdown..."
I think that they expected a huge rise in passengers as from Monday. The buses have been fairly empty since lockdown started.
I agree though that there has been a lot of confusion, contradictions and lack of consistency.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 18, 2020 6:55:52 GMT
"I will be carrying on with this, but my time right now is restricted. But this is a massive subject, and there are lots of layers to it all. Trust me, this isn't a pandemic - it's a plandemic." Too many coincidences to make this "just random". Yes, a PLANdemic. Patents were taken out for COVID years ago. Just waiting for the right time for its use. just look at this from 2003. Oh, wow... that video had me watching with eyes very wide... It is correct. Masks are not useful. You need a full seal, and filters that are designed to stop viruses. I'm about to post a video, which has doctors talking about why wearing masks is dangerous. A topic close to my heart, as I a now being forced to wear one at work now. Well, I wear glasses, so I can have a visor instead. And it is utterly fascinating how they talked about Chloroquine in that video. 2003... the earliest study showing it can work against it was 2005. Meaning it likely was known by the Deep State much earlier. I am currently drinking tonic water to fight against this, though I suspect I already have contracted it, and was asymptomatic. I am having the antibody test on Monday, so we will see what happens there. But, yes. This was planned decades ago. They have been working to a plan for a long, long time.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 18, 2020 6:57:43 GMT
“Made in a lab, then escaped. Or rather, released.” “Too many coincidences to make this "just random". Yes, a PLANdemic.” A former head of MI6 believes that it WAS made in a lab, but the escape was accidental. It is very interesting to see that some demographics are affected more than others, Bangladeshis for example. They are saying it was accidental, to prevent a war. Sometimes you have to lie, to protect the masses.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 18, 2020 8:21:36 GMT
"Masks are not useful."
I feel very lucky not to be affected one way or the other by many of the issues on which the 'experts' contradict each other. The WHO said early on that masks were not effective - but some people said that this was to avoid a demand and save them for frontline staff. Some people believe that even ordinary masks, although they can't compete with the ones used by medical staff, give a little extra protection and keep the wearers' germs close to home; others believe that they give a false sense of security.
I have seen some very strange sights on the streets of London. Some people wear what look like spacemen's helmets!
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 18, 2020 9:12:39 GMT
New Zealand: a COVID-19 success story1,506 cases of coronavirus and just 22 deaths. Only 2 new cases in the month of June: two people from Britain allowed in to visit a dying relative under compassionate exemptions that are no longer in place. Those 22 deaths are a tragedy, but New Zealand escaping with such little damage is a miracle, right? Well, not really. Just a triumph of common sense over liberalism. New Zealand killed coronavirus by being illiberal. In a rare move for a Western regime, Jacinda Ardern's government prioritised public health over the profit margins of big business. How did they do this? - Completely shutting down the borders to non-residents and quarantining returning New Zealanders for 14 days; - A strict early domestic lockdown before case numbers spiralled out of control; - Bringing in a comprehensive and efficient contact tracing scheme New Zealand has now lifted all lockdown restrictions: no more social distancing needed and people can gather in public again. Pubs and cinemas and restaurants are open, people are back at work, and weddings and funerals can take place as normal again. Life is back to normal for New Zealanders. The borders are still closed, in a wise move to make sure that the virus isn't reintroduced. Compare all of this to the catastrophically incompetent handling of the crisis by the British government, who made face masks mandatory on public transport 3 months into lockdown, and seem to be of the view that viruses can spread in pubs and football stadiums but not in Primark. More people will sadly die from this virus and we're going to be living in this limbo for most of the rest of this year and possibly longer, thanks to a negligent and inept government. Because of the New Zealand government's decisive action, all New Zealand has to do now is keep its borders closed. That's it. Prime Minister Ardern has a load of other policies that I completely disagree with, but she has done a superb job in protecting her country from coronavirus and she should be praised for it. It's not as straight forward as that, but... it is about swiftly restricting inbound people. Taiwan has been absolutly sterling through all of this, realising there was a problem ahead of everyone else, and warned the WHO accordingly. They have had careful measures put in place, and they were able to get everyone on board without having a mass panic. Japan is another place to look at, as well. The big challenge with this particular virus is the length of time you can have it, not show symptoms, and be spreading it. But it is steadily getting milder, and the data from those testing positive is showing that up to 80% of confirmed cases were asymptomatic. This is a postitive evelopment, as an asymptomatic variant of the virus will serve as a natural vaccine.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 18, 2020 9:14:41 GMT
"...made face masks mandatory on public transport 3 months into lockdown..." I think that they expected a huge rise in passengers as from Monday. The buses have been fairly empty since lockdown started. I agree though that there has been a lot of confusion, contradictions and lack of consistency. Part of the problem in the UK is that each country has it's own leglislature coming up with its own way of doing things. It is causing a big headache as a result. It's almost as if devolution isn't as great an idea as it might first seem...
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 18, 2020 14:06:50 GMT
Is it about the virus, or about control? Is it about the virus, or about monitoring everyone? Is it about the virus, or us living in fear? Is it about the virus, or about reducing the population?
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on Jun 18, 2020 17:52:41 GMT
Avacyn, I don't think we massively disagree here. I know you disagree on lockdown but seem to agree on the importance of shutting the borders. It's not a coincidence that East Asian countries have fared far better than European ones. They're very collectivist nations not wedded to liberalism and so have no philosophical or logistical issues in doing what's necessary to protect the public health. Westerners, meanwhile, cry about McDonald's being closed. Even Worst Korea, the most pozzed, capitalistic, Americanised East Asian country, dealt with the virus in a very illiberal way with great success. Best Korea hasn't had a single case, because their borders are completely closed, but it wouldn't be fair to praise them especially for that, seeing as that's how they always are!
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Tsar
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Post by Tsar on Jun 18, 2020 18:00:50 GMT
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 18, 2020 19:58:43 GMT
Now Mayor Sadiq Khan wants to make face coverings compulsory for shoppers.
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UnseenI
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Post by UnseenI on Jun 20, 2020 7:24:52 GMT
"Is it about the virus, or about control? Is it about the virus, or about monitoring everyone? Is it about the virus, or us living in fear? Is it about the virus, or about reducing the population?!" Avacyn I would like to add to your questions: Is it just a trial run, a system test? Have we not seen anything yet?
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Post by Tsar on Jun 23, 2020 22:00:28 GMT
So, in the latest episode of Clown Island, the world's most ridiculous government has decided that the pubs can reopen in July, but gyms can't. Right, because a roomful of drunks is easier to manage than sober people keeping to themselves on their machines. Are these clowns for real? And a piss-up surrounded by dozens of strangers is also considered more important to Clowning Street than weddings, which are limited to 30 people. I suppose that is at least consistent with LibLabCon anti-family, consumerist ideology. There were two logical responses to this pandemic: continue as normal to protect people's livelihoods, or do a proper lockdown to protect their health. Instead, we got half-arsed half measures that aren't protecting either; people will still lose savings, jobs, and businesses, and the virus will continue to spread.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 24, 2020 6:45:09 GMT
Avacyn , I don't think we massively disagree here. I know you disagree on lockdown but seem to agree on the importance of shutting the borders. It's not a coincidence that East Asian countries have fared far better than European ones. They're very collectivist nations not wedded to liberalism and so have no philosophical or logistical issues in doing what's necessary to protect the public health. Westerners, meanwhile, cry about McDonald's being closed. Even Worst Korea, the most pozzed, capitalistic, Americanised East Asian country, dealt with the virus in a very illiberal way with great success. Best Korea hasn't had a single case, because their borders are completely closed, but it wouldn't be fair to praise them especially for that, seeing as that's how they always are! Border controls are essential, no matter what is happening. Good fences makes for good neighbours. You cannot just have anyone come into your country, that is madness. North Korea has likely had cases, but they dealt with it in a very blunt manner. By bullet. I hate the idea, but the nutritional state of the nation is awful, and a malnurished population is not going to fare at all well against any virus pandemic. It's simple logic. This whole thing has shown the clear need to have communities. Communities look after one another, and this has shown it readily.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 24, 2020 6:50:49 GMT
Not sure what is going on with her. She has all this time seemed like a Deep State puppet, but... the border situaion is puzzling. The Deep State was clearly planning to use New Zealand as a refuge - lots of the high level players have bunkers there. The swift shutting down of borders killed all of that for them. They couldn't go and hide away over there. Really interesting indeed. Is she flipping, was she playing them along... be interesting to see what is revealed, in the end.
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Post by Avacyn on Jun 24, 2020 6:55:53 GMT
Now Mayor Sadiq Khan wants to make face coverings compulsory for shoppers. Yeah, that is not a surprise. He has to try and keep fear going, and let's face it... he is struggling for survival right now. He is constantly begging for money, and trying to blackmail the Government to keep giving him cash. He still has an election to go through, because it was postponed. It'll be interesting how well he fares in it.
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